Hvað er það að verða þáttinn af verkkvæðivarpinu?Velkomin í enneitt þáttinn af verkkvæðivarpinusem er hugafórstúrun okkara kennara og fræðamanna við verkkvættir Háskónsir í Kjöfík.Ég heiti Helgi Þór og alltaf leiða spjallið í dag.Með mér er Haugur Ingi sem alltaf verður að tökka um og koma inn með nokkar góða spurningarog svo er hann Þóruður Vikingur sem er með okkur í þessu æminn týri.Við erum í verkkvæðivarpinu að fjalla um það hvernig verkkvæðin snertirallar liðar samfélagsins með margvíslum hætti.Það er fysisk og professor á klimatriskmænsmið á Danmarka.Það er fokussið á hvernig klimatvæðin og náttúrulega þáttinnþáttir kritíkilega infrastruktúrameð fyrirhættið á klimatvæðin og resiliens.Það er að vila Íslandið að gefa kínóti og fyrirhætti á þessu fólki.Kjá, Martin.Thank you for joining us.Before we start talking about climate resilience,maybe you can tell us a little bit about yourselfand how you became interested in this topic.Well, thank you very much.It's so nice to be here.As you already said, my name is Martin Druss.At the Technical University of Denmark,I'm doing research,on sort of the intersection of a lot of different disciplinesbut how I got into this mess being a physicist by natureis a little bit, as you say, a journey in itselfbecause I was originally interested in nuclear physicsso I worked with nuclear emergency managementso I developed models for atmospheric dispersionbut also methodologies for actually deploying measurement stationsand stuff like thatand that kind of brought me into the whole worldof sort of risk managementwhich is something I took with mewhen I got employed at the Danish Met Officewhere I then started working a lot on climateand as you know, I mean, as time have goneI mean, we've kind of moved in the climate science fieldfrom just focusing on sort of the basic science of climateinto what are we going to do about itand that was sort of a natural journeyfor me alsobecause I have this very keen interestin sort of understanding how things are sort of come togetherand I very fast found outthat if you really want to work with sort of the extremes of climateand how they affect societiesyou certainly get messed up in this thingthat it's not just about climateit's also about all the systems that it actually affectsit's the peopleand it's the interlinkages between people and systemsand climateand people and systems and climateand people and systems and climateand people and systems and climateand people and systems and climateback againso that's kind of why I got into this thingand of course, climate adaptationor risk management or whatever you want to call itis then, you could say, the actionsthat we are trying to taketo actually counteract what we're seeingand what we're meetingso that was sort ofso I got kind of interest in thatbecause whenever you get approached by peoplewho are not climate scientiststhey're not so muchokay, it sounds goodit sounds interestingyeah, all this informationwhat can we do about it?but that's really what sort of societyis worrying about todayat least the sort of broader part of itand that just fascinated meso I started studying itand over many yearsI still kept kind of one footin sort of basic natural sciencebut more and more my work simply took offand became interdisciplinaryor even transdisciplinary workworking with peoplesworking with institutionsworking with other scientists from other fieldsthat have sort of expertise far away from mineso behavioral scienceis an important part of the equation, right?it's a very important part of the equationI mean, one of the main driversif you look into the research todayis the fact thatif we were all going to do the rational thingthen we would fix a lot of problemsbut we don't do rational thingsI mean, there's so much research showing thatyeah, I meanin principlewe have the fundingand we have the opportunityand we have the space for doing this and thatbut if people don't want to moveor politicians sort of sayokay, but this is not feasibleeven though, I mean, technically it is feasibleand because maybe voters will not vote for them the next timeor organizations do not want to changeI mean, then nothing happensand there's so many examples of thatso therefore behavioral science and climate scienceare really getting sort of interlinked these daysas you see again and againthat it's really about trying to find outhow can you actually affect peopleor sort of get people to sort of have the right sort of behaviorbut also listening to themand finding out what are the concernsbecause then sometimes in the middle of thisyou can actually find a compromisethat sort of makes everybody happyand sort of solves the problem at leastto some extentInterestingMm-hmmCan you, I mean, there are some conceptsthat are floating around in this discussionand I guess to some extentpeople have different understandingand perceptions of conceptswe are talking about old conceptsbut also new concepts in the discussionso in this fieldwe sometimes hear the terms riskand we hear the term resiliencecan you maybe comment a little bit abouthow these concepts are related?Yes, I canI mean, it'sif we start about riskI mean, I come from sort of a climate scienceor climate adaptation science backgroundand in that senseit's sort of, in principle it's very simplebecause the intergovernmental panel on climate changehave basically definedthat risk is somehowsort of intersection betweensome sort of hazardwhatever that may bethe exposure to this hazardand the vulnerability of the systemor systemsthat you doand of course that includes interlinked systemshowever, the sort of bridging from thereto actually resiliencehas been aalso fromfor this domaina journeybecause if you look backjust 10 yearsand certainly 20 yearsrisk was basically aboutavoiding getting hurtit was about protectionand then as time went byand as a resultmore and more disciplinessort of got involvedand more and moregood risk management practices failedyou sort of realizedthis is not just about thisand then of coursethe whole debate of sustainabilitywhich sort of came inso today in my fieldI mean, thesort of IPCC has definedresilienceand this is justI should saythis is one of many definitionsI think one of my PhD studentslooked into it at some pointlooking into thetheliteratureand he found48 different definitionsof resiliencein the literatureand there's probably morebut the IPCChas kind of adopted onewhich is basically sayingwell, we take the wholeclimate risk thingso we arewe sort ofall the stuff that has to do withadaptationand coping withsort of extreme risksandemergency risk managementbut also the objectivesonmitigatingall the greenhouse gas emissionsthat we havesort of going towardsa more greener futurebut also in the endhow all these thingsintersect with exactlythe sustainable development goalsso basicallyyou could saya resilient societyfromfrom the perspectiveI look intoissort of a mishmashofor an intersectionof climate change adaptationclimate change mitigationandsustainable developmentI mean, if we can upholdandtake all thosethree areasat the same timeand develop a societyin thatthat directionthat would be a climate resilientsocietyandit'snot necessarily logicalbecause this is a conceptthat changedI meanresiliencewas not somethingthat the IPCCfor exampleor the climateadaptation communityembracedas I said10-20 years agoin this wayit was mostly about risksoso things changeand I'm sure thatin 10 years timeit will have a new meaningI mean, it'sjust in thein the upcoming IPCC reportwhich doesn't have a date yetbutit's stillit's been worked onvery hardby a lot ofgood colleaguesthey are going to beeven morepushing for thisdefinition ofresilienceinstead of justlooking atat plain riskI mean, just the riskof being floodedorthe risk ofheavy rainsbut more onlooking atok, whatcan we doto actually bring outresiliencebecauseandI meanjust tomaybe addto thisone of the reasonsfor thisobviouslyis becausewe have starteddiscussingsome thingsthat are sort ofok, if we couldcope with the riskswe haveeasilythen there wouldbe no needto talk aboutresiliencebut theproblem isthat we arefacinghuge uncertaintiesbut we are alsofacingthe fact thatsome of the risksif I may usethat phrase againareuncoupablewe cannotcope withthissometimesthe onlyand the bestsolutionis toevacuateourselvesfrom the riskand this isone of thethingsfor examplethat's beingverydiscussedbut alsodebatedin Denmarkiswe area veryflatcountryare thereareasaround thecoastwhere weshould notlivewhich isa veryfundamentalthingfor manypeopleyou taketheirhomesawaybut that'sbecausemaybein 50yearstimenobodyshouldactuallylivetherebecausepeopleshouldbuyshouldbuild5-6metertallwallsorwhateverin theworstcasescenariooryouremoveallsortoffundamentalinfrastructureand soon andsoforthtomaketoactuallyprotectoryouneedtoadaptsomehowtomaketheseareasresilientthat'ssortofthedebatethat'songoingandit'sa verydifficultoneto behonestbecauseit'seasiertoprotectthanyesand itcould beevenbleakerisn'titkindofpotentiallya neweyesightdue totheamokyoucallityesthat'sashortforitcanyoumaybereflectonthata littlebityeahno I meanbut that'sa veryvery goodpointI meanbasicallythere aretwomaintippingpointsinnorthernhemispherethat wearelookingintois ofcoursetheamokcollapsethatmightactuallyhavehumongousimplicationsas yousayalmosta newice ageorcoolingallpartoftheworldwhichwouldsortofcompletelycounteracteverythingwe'vebeenstartingto dooverthelastyearsandtheotheroneisofcourseextremesealevelrisewhichisanotheropportunityI meanit'snotnobodycanruleoutthatwedon'thaveahumongouscollapseoftheAntarcticIceSheetandsobothofImeanrightnowwe'removing100kilometersanhourormoretowardstheworldwherewe'relookingforwarmingwhatifit'ssuddenlycoolingandeverythinggoestheotherwayanditisreallydifficulttobuildandthisisoneofthereasonswhyImeanIpersonallyendorseverymuchtheideaofbuildingresilienceratherthansortofprotectingbecausewhatifwebuiltahumongousdikearoundIcelandorSwedenandthensuddenlyyouhavefullcollapseandeverythingislostandmaybewehaveevenhurtourselvesbecausemaybeit'ssomethingelsemaybewejustfencedourselvesinaplacewheremaybewe'llgetrainorsnoworsnowmeltandwe'vejustmadeourselvesanicepondwherewecandrownandthisiswhyImeanit'sagoodideatolookandnecessarilyandessentialtoactuallythinkaboutokayweneedtomakesolutionsthatincreaseourresilienceandalsomultifunctionalthat wouldbe agoodideanomatterwhatthat'sthesortofclassicanswerthat'susuallyaboutstrengtheningsocietystrengtheningsystemsrather thansayingnow wejustmakeaonetimefixthatsortofwehopewillprotectusforalleternitythisideaweneedtodosomethingyesbutthatsomethingmaynotbeofanygoodintheendnoImeanagoodsortofafunnyexamplethatwediscussedbeforeImeanrightnowImeantheNetherlandsis anexcellentexampleof acountrythatreallydidalotImeantheyknowImeanthatsealevelshavebeenrisingbuttheyalsohaveriverfloodingandstufffordecadesforcenturiessotheybuildaveryintricatesystemandwhatthey'rerealizingnowbecauseactuallyit'sgettingwarmerandbecauseit'sacountrythathasalotofmanagedagricultureandstufflikethatactuallybecauseofthesedryperiodstheyhavemoreandmorewildfiresinthemiddleofbehindallthesedikesandthat'sactuallyaproblembecauseit'sdifficultforactivefirebrigadestooperatebehindallthesedifferentfencesthatthey'vemadepluspeopleclustera lotbehindallthosedikesthat'sanotherwellsortofdescribedmechanismandifyouhaveadikeandcomingbacktothisaboutbehavioralscienceImeanpeoplehaveatendencyofhidingbehindthembecausetheyfeelsafewhichisagoodfeelingbutanywaythat'swhattheydoandthenImeanforwhateverreasonImeanandIhavethisfromoneoftheseveryexpensiveplanesforputtingoutfirethattheyuseinCanadawhichiscompletelyuselessintheNetherlandsyesandanexampleofthiskindofignoranceordenialisisn'tthatsothatthemilitaryemissionsareexemptfromtheglobalreportingofyesyesyesrightIdon'tknowifthey'reexceptIwouldassumetheyareImeantherearesomanythingsthatinrealityhavebecausehowwouldyoumeasureeventheImeanandthat'salsooneofthehumongouschallengesinthisfieldishowdoyouevenmeasureemissionsImeanwehadaninterestingcaseinDenmarknotsolongtimeagoImeanthesewereemissionsthat'ssupposedtobethesortofriskofthisofwherethemilitaryforexamplewillsortofcomeouttooneoftheanotherfundiscussioninthisfieldisthefactthatwehavemostoftheemissionsfromburningforestsinEuropeifwedefineEuropeasbeingsortofcentralEuropelikeEUplusstufflikethatcomesfromthebigforestinUkrainethat'sby farbecausethat'sthebiggestforestthatwehaveinsortofcentralEuropeandsothat'swheremostoftheemissionsarecomingfromthat'swheremostofthewildfirerisksarecomingfromandwe'vehadadebateinDenmarkaboutwhathappenshereandwhathappensthereandwhatwasbroughtupandIdon'tknowifthere'sanyevidenceofthisisthatImeanallthebombsthat'sthrownintheUkrainehavetodosomethingintermsoffireriskandImeannobodyhaslookedintothatIdon'tevenknowifit'spossiblebutitjustagaindescribesthattherearealotofmechanismstherea lotofyoucouldsayunknownunknownsorwhateverthatwerunoutwithinthisdomainwhichisagainwhywehavetothinkaboutokwedon'toptimizewebuildthissortofwetrytoactuallyadaptinawaythatwetakeintoaccountthattherearethingswedon'tknowunknownunknownsyessowesometimesclaimhereinIcelandthatweprideourselvesinbeinggoodatrespondingtocrisisandbecauseofnaturewehavedifferentkindsofthingsthathappenvolcanoesearthquakesdifferentthingsbutsometimesit issaidthatwearemaybelesssystematicwhen itcomestolongtermplanningsoyouhavegivenanexamplefromNetherlandsbutwhenIlookatDenmarkGermanyNetherlandsIthinkaboutplanningandpeoplethataregoodinplanningandanticipatingrisksbutnowIstartwonderingwhetheritisafairobservationisitthesamethinginthewholeworldinyourcountrywehavehadflutesinDenmarksowhatisyourexperiencefromwhatishappeningnowandtheextenttowhichyouarepreparedtowhat'shappeningwellIthinkthatDenmarkis averyinterestingcaseinrealityandoneofthereasonsIthinkweareinmanywaysbutexactlyfortheclimatechangechallengeIthinkwearemaybelesswellpreparedyoushouldhavelesshighopinionofusthanyouhavewegobackto2009wasbasicallywherecountriesinourpartoftheworldstartedhavingclimateadaptationplansbeforethatnoonehaditandDenmarkkindofstoodoutcompletelycomparedtomanyoftheothercountriesinasensethatwedecidedtohaveanadaptationstrategythatsaidokthegovernmentwillbasicallyprovideinformationbutsinceadaptationissomethingthathappenslocallyandlocalpeopleareprobablybetteroffknowingwhattheyneedhowtoprotectthemselvesthewholethingwasbuiltthatwayandit'sbeenlikethatallthewaybackto2009andthere'sbeena lotofthingslikeit'sveryniceyouputclimateservicesoutthereyoutellushowmuchthewaterwillriseorthetemperaturewillincreasebutyoudon'ttellushowtodoitandwedon'thaveexpertsinthissointhesensethatDenmarkisgoodatitbecausethisecosystemhasprompteda lotofconsultantsinDenmarktoactuallylikeCOVIDandRambleandotherworldknowncompaniestoactuallybeverygoodatitsothey'redoingitinDenmarkforthemunicipalitiestheyaredoingitinternationallyallovertheworldandironicallyenoughyou'veseenasimilarthingintheNetherlandsImeanthere'scompanieslotsofDutchcompaniesallovertheworldthataresupergoodatthisIwouldthensaythatintermsofbeingpreparedtheNetherlandsdidonethingintermsofwaterbecauseIreallydothinkthattheNetherlandsintermsofwaterismaybeoneofthebestpreparedalsoforlongtermisthattheybasicallyorganizedtheentirestructurepoliticalstructurearoundthissothereintheNetherlandseverythingto dowithwaterbothqualityandtoomuchandtoolittleishandledbysocalledwaterboardsandthesewaterboardsaresortofthey'relikelocalgovernmentstheyhaveapoliticalleadershiptheyhavefundingtheyaredoingeverythingandalotofpeopleareenviousatthatbecauseitdoesmeanthatitfacilitateslongtermplanningintegrationofresearchandlongtermplanningandsoonwhereasasopposedtoforexampleDenmarkandmaybealsoIcelandIdon'tknowwherealotofthisthingissortoflefttoconsultantsthatofcourseatsomepointgetsfedbysciencebysortofthesethingsbutintheendofthedayit'saprojectandoneofthereasonswhysomeoftheseverylongtermplanninginitiativesfailortheygetdowngradedorwhateverisbecausethere'slackoffundingifthelocalgovernmentsdonothavefundstohiretheconsultantsandtokeepthemontheseprojectsforyouyearswhichisimpossibletoimaginehowthatwouldhappenthenyoubasicallygetshorttermfixesmorethanlongtermprojectshavingabeginningandanendyouneedtobuildsomethingintotheculturethewaywethinkthewayexactlysoyouareherehelpingushereandsharingyourexperiencesin aconferencewhichhasthemaintopicfromrisktoresilienceandwehavetalkedaboutthoseconceptsandoneofthethingsthatyouaregoingtotalkaboutisamethodthathelpsustodealwiththissituationit'scalleddynamicadaptionpathwaysplanningandyou'releadingaworkshoponthiswithmanyquiteinterestedengineersandpeopleingovernmentcanyoutellusalittlebitaboutthismethodyesIcanImeanbasicallythinkaboutthesortofusualwaypeopleplanstuffistodayisokIhavetosolveaproblemmaybeIhavetobuildadikeorIhavetoadjustadamtoajobholddamsafetyandsoonlikethatandsothewayyouwouldnormallyapproachthiswouldbetosayokIlookatbasicallyinonestepI'mgoingtofixitI'mgoingtosomehowdosomethingI'mgoingtodoacostbenefitanalysisI'mgoingtorunanumberofdifferentscenariostomakesurethatmycostbenefitanalysisisokandthenwhenIfoundtheoptimalsolutionI'mgoingtobehappytheproblemisthatfacingthisextremeclimateriskwetalkedbeforebutalsorisksfromallotherkindsofthingsImeanhumandevelopmentgeopoliticalpressurethatwillchangethewayourpoliciesaremadethenit'ssortofalittlebitoptimistictobelievethatweknowtodayhowwe'regoingtomakeasolutionthatwilllastahundredyearssotheideaofdynamicadaptivepathwaysplanningwhichisinheritedfromtheNetherlandsandtheirdeltaplanistosaywemakeasequentialapproachinsteadsobysortofyoucouldsaytoacertainextentit'saboutwaitingandseeingorbylookingattheproblemandbreakingitintopiecesandsayingokaybutifItrytopavethefuturenotlikearoadfromAtoBbuttheremightbearoadfromAtoBbuttheremightalsobeonefromAtoCtoDtoBorevensomeotherwayimagineametrodiagramwhereyouwanttocomefromoneendtotheotherthegoalisthesameyouwanttherearestepsyoucantakewhilestillmaintainingyourpossibilityofchangingyourmindandthat'sthewholeideaoftryingtoactuallybreakdowntheroadinpiecesthenanalyzethewholethingandsayingokaybutItryasmuchaspossibletoidentifythewholeadaptationspaceorthewholeactionspacethenonceI'vemappedthoseIcanthenlookatokaynowIhaveaportfolioofdifferentsolutionsanddifferentadaptationsandthenIchooseideallythethingthatmakesmoresensetomebutalsotheonethatkeepsmyoptionsopenbecauseifforexampleaswetalkedabouttheAMOCcollapseandstufflikethatthatwewillfindoutin10yearsthatit'snotbadatallthenmaybewecanhavetoshrinkourdecisionspacebutwedon'tknowthatnowweneedtolockourselvesintoa100yearsolutionthatwemayhavetogiveupormightbefutilebecausein10yearswe'llfindoutthiswasnotneededwe'veoveradaptedorunderadaptedandthat'sthewholeideaandthereasonwhyit'sgettingtobesopopularandgettingsomuchisbecausejustliketheresiliencetermhasbeensortoftravelingthroughtheIPCCintheupcomingIPCCreportwhichwillbethe7ththerewillbeanupdateoftheguidelineswhichwaslasttimeupdatedin1998forhowtodealwiththiswheretheyareactuallygoingtoadoptthisideaofclimateresilientdevelopmentpathwayswhichisessentiallyanotherwayofexpressingtheseadaptivepathwayssoverysoonthere'snotjustgoingtobeasomethingthatconsultantsor soweren'tgoing tobeit'sactuallygoingtobeyoucouldsaytheglobalrecommendationfromtheIPCCthatyoulookintothesesortoftechniquesandwhichisaverygoodthingbutalsoverychallengingthingbecauseit'sstillit'sagoodexampleofresearchasyougobecausetherearealotofgapsthatstillneedstobefoundatthemomentitworksverywellaslikeaqualitativetooltoactuallysitwithstakeholdersworkwithstakeholdersandtrytooutlieoutthesethingsmakingthemquantitativein awaythatsortofengineerswantandbeingabletolookatthewholespaceisquitedifficultinfactit'snearlyimpossiblebecausethesortofdecisionspacegrowsimmenselythemomentyouhavetogoandinterconnectbackandforththisis1placewheresomeoftheselearningmethodsfromAIforexamplewillprobablycomeinhandywedoabitofresearchonthatbecausewethinkthat'sprobablythewayit'sgoingtogoanywaybecauseifyouhavethishugedecisionspacethatwecannothaveinourheadsthenmaybeweneedtoolstoactuallyhelpusgraspthemwithoutlettingAInecessarilymakethedecisionforusbecausethatwillnothappencomingbackagaintothefactthatthisisverymuchaboutbehaviorandalsoandwedidn'tgetAItochangeourmindsyetsoIthinkthat'sthisisyeahIhaveImeanwehavesomewhattosayinstallationsorwehavesomesomebackgroundas ahumanityinorganizingpeopleandmakingthembelieveincertainsolutionsratherthanothersrightit'stheworldreligionshowwouldyouImeanthatwaskindofyouseepeoplearemotivatedtodothingsrightcanyoureflecta littlebitonthatyesbutIthinkthisisexactlyoneofthereasonswhyIthinkit'saverygoodthingtobasicallytakethesethingsstepwisealsobecauseImeanyou'reexactlyrightImeanthere'sImeanallthroughtimealotofthegoodthingsthathashappenedbecauseofcultureorbecausepeopledidtheyhadtobuildachurchandhencetheyactuallydidalotofinfrastructuredevelopmenttoactuallysustainthatchurchIwasinImeanveryniceexampleinDenmarkinthecityofEsbjerwhichisknowninasensebecauseImeanit'sthefifthlargestcityinDenmarkbutit'salsoinbackinthe1200somethingstherewaswhatwecalledthegreatmandrowningbecausetherewasahumongousstormsurgefromthenorthseabiggerthanwehaveeverseenandeverythinggotsortofflushedawayexceptthechurchbecausethosepeoplethatbecausethat'sbuiltontopofahillbecausesomebodyknewthatokaythisisagoodplaceandchurcheshavebeensheltersforsortofhumansandsoyouseethatalotintermsofguidinghowweshouldactuallydoinasocietypeopleknewbeforewehadmodelsbeforewehadprojectionstheyjustknewthatweneedtohavethisImeanwhetherit'sasmeansofdefendingagainstenemiesImeanalwaysbeengoodtohaveahilltopor soonlikethatandIdothinkthatit'sImeanthesesortoftoolsarereallyimportantandIthinkoneofthecomingbacktomaybeoneofthethingsthatIsaidalittlebitearlierIthinkintermsofoneofthethingsthatreallyfascinatesmeaboutthesethingsisthatwhenwetalkaboutextremesextremesaresomanythingsextremesarenotmoneylostnecessarilyitcanalsobereallyextremeconsequencesonthepeoplea lotpeople'sdifferentperspectivesbecauseit'simportantto haveeverythingtherenotjusttechniciansalsopeoplewithotheropinionscanbeNGOsbutitcanalsobeasyousayreligiousorganizationspeoplewhobringsomethingtothetothetableI meanI'mtemptedto thinkinIcelandwe havetheseundergroundtrollsand stufflike thatI don'tknowiftheycouldbeatthetablebutImeanit'ssometimesI havea feelingtheyshouldelvesyesthe elvesshould bethereinIcelandI knowthere aresomefunnystoriesaboutdifferentinfrastructureprojectsthat didnothappenbecauseoftheelvesbutwithreligionI'mnotmaybenotnecessarilytalkingaboutthecurrentreligionsI'malsotalkingabouttheHindustheydon'teatmeatthat'sprettysustainableandpeoplearewillingtoendureallkindsofresiliencebecauseoftheirbeliefsorfaithorcommitmenttothecausesothatseemsto besomethingsimilartowhatweneedrightrightIagreecompletelyI meanit isa matterofcommitmentand Ithinkit'sand Ithinkthis ismaybethebiggestchallengewe havestillbecausewe arenotcommittedyettothesethingsand Imeanit'sbothon averyhumanlevelI meanas yousayHindusorpeoplegoingvegetarianorstoppingto flyall thetimeI meansomethingsthatsortofmake,everybodymakesa smallcontributionand Idon'tthinkthat wearereallygoingthereyetand Imeanbutyou canalsoscalethatupbecauseit'salsocommitmentsfromgovernmentsand othersthat aresort oflikeokaybutI meanright nowwe havea commitmentat leastin Denmarkevery fouryearswe havea newgovernmentroughlyspeakingandoftenthey takethingsindifferentdirectionssostuffthatwasstartedbythelastgovernmentisnotnecessarilycontinuedand Ican onlyimagineif youarereallytryingto buildthesesolutionsputthesethingstogetherhowfrustratingthatmustbesortofnewdirectionsandsortofnocommitmenttothesedifferentthingssocultureis acrucialpieceof thepuzzleI thinkyou'rerightI thinkit doesstandand fallwithcultureI meanit'sandI meanthat'swhatthat'swhatyouseeallovertheworldbutit'sbothintermsofsomecultureswillbeverysupportiveofthesethingsbuttherearealsoculturesthatwillgotheotherwayaroundandIthinkthat'ssomethingtomanagealsoI'mgoingtobringthetalknowalittlebitclosertoprojectsandwhatishappeningandwearehereinacountrythatinthecomingdecadeswe'retalkingaboutenergytransportandmanyothersectorsandyouknowafterhavingtalkednowabouttheneedtobeflexibleinyourplanningandbuildthingsupinamodularwayandinasequencecanyoucommentbasedonyourexperiencewhatwouldbeyouradvicetoIcelandicplannersanddecisionmakerswhentheyarefacedwiththishugeinvestmentrealityyeahIthinkImeanIwouldIthinkIwouldhavetwosortofmainrecommendationsinthatsensefirstofallandthatmaybethemostimportantonethinkholisticallybecauseImeanyoubuildImeaninfrastructureisthebasisofourmodernsocietieswhetherit'scommunicationsorit'spowerorit'stransportwhathaveyouorit'swatersystemsandstufflikethateverythingisthefoundationofmodernsocietybutinfrastructureservicespeopleandIthinkit'sveryimportanttofigureoutalsotohavethesortofhumanaspectImeanwherearewelivingwhatarewedoingbecauseIthinkthat'sreallyreallyimportantandImeanIseeinDenmarkforexampleahumongoustendencyto beverysiloedsoyougoandsayokaynowIdothatandthenwepointourwaytothatandthenonceyou'vedoneyou'resortoflikeokaybutyouwerealsosupposedtohavethoughtthatsoIthinkintermsofplanningIthinkit'simportanttotakeaholisticangleandmaybethinkaboutthingsyouwouldnotimmediatelythinkaboutandmaybeinvolvesodon'tImeanthis isnotbecauseIdon'tbelieveintheenergyplannersnotallandthenIthinkit'sthetimeperspectiveImeanandIthinkthat'swhereIthinkyouandIcelandcanprobablyteachthe restof ussomethingbecauseImeanwithearthquakesandvolcaniceruptionsyouknowthatthingscanchangerandomlyandsuddenlyandofcourseyouconsiderthatwhenyoubuildinfrastructureandIthinkit'syoushouldjustcontinuetoactuallydothatIthinkthat'saverygoodthingandthenthat'sofcoursetheIwouldsaythesortoftheoverarchinglytrytosortoflookatrisksagaininasortoftoodecentriskassessmentandmaybealsodecideisitreallyworthbuildingithereinsteadofdoingbuildingitsomewhereelseImeanit'sIthinktherearemanybiginfrastructureprojectsIknowofwhereyoucouldsayokaytheywereplanned30yearsagoandaretheystillrelevant30yearslaterinaworldwhereforexamplewewanttobemoreelectrifiedmaybewearebecauseweneedmorepowerconnectivitymorerenewableenergybutmaybethereareotherthingsthatwedon'tneedandofcoursethatparticularaspectthereaboutpowerisofcourseimportantIthinkallcountriesandwehavethedebateinDenmarkverymuchrightnowbecausetheywanttobuildlike50datacentersnewdatacentersinDenmarkbecauseofallourwindmillsbutitalsomeansthatwearebasicallyracingagainstsomethingbecausewebecomeverypopularforsomeofthebigAmericanandothercompaniestheybuilddatacenterstheyneedpowerbutwearealsogoingtohavemoreelectrifiedvehiclesandelectrifiedindustryandelectrifiedeverythingandifwearenotgoingtobuildnuclearpowerplantsandstufflikethatthenweneedanobsceneamountofwindpowerandsolarpowerandstufflikethatandweneedthegridstobeextendedtheyarealreadytoosmalltodayIdon'tevendaretothinkaboutwhatweneedtodoImeanmanymanyyearsagoweashumongousinfrastructureprojectwebasicallyneedtohavepowercablesintheairagainbecausewedon'thavetimeormoneytodigthemdownaswedidoncetokeepupwiththespeedofthesenewinfrastructureprojectssoIthinkreallycriticalthinkingofwhatweneedandhowweneedthemIthinkwouldbemyrecommendationforsortofthesedevelopersinIcelandandthenalsorecognizingofcoursethatIcelandisaveryuniqueplaceintheImeanyou'reinanislandinthemiddleofanoceanyouhavetobeselfsustainedandyouhaveaveryuniquenaturethatofcourseprovidessomeconstraintssoeventhoughitmightbetemptingI'mrathersurethatit'sagoodideatolookatyourrealityandnotjustcopyheywedowhattheydoNorwaybecauseNorwaydiditwellinIcelandit'sagoodpointsoI'mhearingthinkingoutoftheboxevenabstractgettingdifferentperspectivesandbehavioralaspectsandofcoursemaybesystemsthinkingtheholisticthewholesysteminsteadofsolvingisolatedproblemssothat'sadifferentwayofthinkingsoonafinalnoteafterhavingtalkedaboutalloftheseinterestingaspectswhenyouthinkaboutthefutureorworldofuncertaintyMartinareyouoptimisticforthefutureI'malwaysoptimisticofthefuturebecauseImeanhowcanyounotbebutIagreethattherearechallengesinthefutureboththenearfutureandthefarfutureandImeanIalsorecognizelikeIthinkweallhavetorecognizethatmaybethissortofagendathatwearetalkingabouttodaymaynotbethehighestpointonpoliticalagendaatthemomentbutI'moptimisticthatwearegoingtosomehowcopewiththisImeanmankindhascopedwithsomanyotherthingsovertheageswearegoingtofindouttherearesomegreatmindsoutthereandIthinkthegoodthingisthatthesearechallengesthatwecanworkwithandthatinitselfisreallysomethingto behappyaboutonthatoptimisticnoteI'mgoingtoclosethisdiscussionthankyouMartinforaveryinterestingpodcastandbestofluckinyourfutureteachingthankyouthanksandthanksfortheinvitationagainandI'llsee younext timebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebyebye
